Пионер

[I-lya]

Там в том числе обсуждаются разные теории относительно принадлежности подобных ножей. Существует версия, что эти ножи производились целенаправленно для распространения в качестве сувениров или благотворительных продаж. В том числе после нанесения на клинок травления с той или иной тематикой (Олимпиада, партийный съезд). основная причина такой версии - отсутствие фотографий и документов, подтверждающих целевое использование ножей. К тому же эту версию может косвенно подтверждать тот факт, что большинство ножей находится в очень хорошем состоянии, не имеет заточки и сделаны из алюминия, что делает их трудноприменимыми в качестве скаутских ножей, которые должны быть рассчитаны на нагрузку.

При этом ярым защитником того, что эти ножи производились именно в периоде, является Роналд Вейнанд. Он постоянно утверждает, что покупал эти предметы в составе наследства ветеранов и убежден, что все они были привезены в качестве трофеев с войны.

Но, учитывая размер ножей, схожесть с ножами ГЮ, наличием на части из них эмблем ГЮ, было проведена аналогия с младшим подразделением ГЮ - DJ. Очень комеерческая версия.

А конкретно обсуждаемый ножик в 2007 году всплыл на ВА в торгах европейского дилера, который когда-то в свою очередь купил его в составе коллекции у кого-то в Европе.

Изменено 26 августа, 2011 пользователем I-lya

[Евгений__]

Большое спасибо за пересказ. Но у моего лезвие стальное.

[I-lya]

В связи с тем, что тема получила неожиданное продолжение и на ВВ2 и на ГД, хотел бы высказать ряд дополнительных мыслей:

1. При обсуждении этих предметов нужно иметь ввиду, что коллекционеры ХО имеют по ним две разнополюсные теории касательно периода их производства, целей и видов. Поэтому с одной стороны легко найти как сторонников любой идеи, так и противников. Однако, в связи с тем, что уже было поломано много копий, обычно бурных дискуссий по предмету не возникает.

2. Так как отсутствует какая-либо документарная база, на которую можно было бы опереться при сравнении предметов, в т.ч. деталей типа ромба на ножнах и т.п., все мысли о "неправильности" той или иной детали просто абсурдны. К примеру, многие считают, что эти ромбы специально монтировались на ножны для производства сувенирной продукции "победителям". Что-то вроде известных СА-шных кинжалов для них же...О какой унификации этих ромбов вообще можно говорить.

3. Все доступные форумы и литература имеют исчерпывающее количество информации по теме. В том числе и фото, на основании которых можно выработать мнение. В данном случае я не вижу отличий обсуждаемого предмета от большинства обсуждаемых и продаваемых.

4. В отличие от некоторых коллекционеров мне повезло не только видеть на фото, но и держать в руках несколько экземпляров. Так что сравнить есть с чем.

 

И на всякий случай одно из писем Джонсона из его переписки с известным коллекционеров по теме Югенда:

 

Прошу прощения, что без перевода. Но возможно в тексте есть некоторые тонкости, которые не хотелось бы потерять при переводе....

 

June 25, 2009

 

Dear Russell:

 

Thank you very much for your email reply of 24 June. I only have a few minutes, as I am departing for Pennsylvania to purchase some German daggers, but I did want to provide you “my take” on the DJ knives.

 

First, Russell, I would like to say that I am very impressed with the HJ Research Forum. In my opinion, this is the best organized and appealing militaria forum that I have personally observed on the internet.

 

As I mentioned in my last email to you, I am relatively certain that I had some source document to work with concerning this particular model knife when I authored my Volume I of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich during the 1970’s. However, as you might well imagine, I have literally hundreds of 1933 – 1945 documents concerning the edged weapon industry in Solingen during the Third Reich period, but, even if the particular source document cannot be found, I think that your forum members may be jumping the gun in trying to sway the argument that these small DJ knives did not exist during the era of the Third Reich. You mentioned in your email to me that “assumptions are made that there cannot be any evidence, and respected people with the vast experience such as yourself, and others have made no comment”. Therefore, I would like to make the following comment:

 

I personally think it is a real cheap shot when forum members indicate that reference book authors are writing their books to promote merchandise sales. 20When I authored Volume I, I was strictly a serious German dagger collector, and not a known dealer in German edged weaponry. A member states on the forum that perhaps “the buying public have been led down a rocky road”. Hardly! My experience is that reference book authors pour their guts out into their writings attempting to not only educate collectors and share what they have learned over many years, but also to protect collectors from wasting their hard earned money on reproductions. You will find countless examples in my writings on how to identify reproduction Third Reich daggers. It may come as a surprise to some of the forum members, but some reference book authors don’t even sell militaria! I took a few minutes just to take a look through some of our own reference books here at JRB&M, and I can tell you that the following well-known authors, in addition to myself, feel that the small DJ knife did, in fact, exist in the version with (and in some cases without) the HJ diamond on the scabbard and is pictured in John R. Angolia’s well-received Daggers, Bayonets, and Fighting Knives of Hitler’s Germany, Dominique Veener’s Les Armes Blanches Du III Reich, Frederick J. Stephen’s Edged Weapons of the Third R eich, 1933 – 1945 (although Fred indicates that it may well be a commercial piece adapted for the HJ youth or a very early semi-official type), John Angolia’s HJ, Volume I, and David Littlejohn’s The Hitler Youth. These respected and competentauthors all feel this model Youth knife existed during the period. Additionally, the five experienced partners of the new Empire Auction also, obviously, feel that this small dagger existed during the period, as they presently have one being offered on their website.

 

One forum member points out that the DJ knife is not pictured in any of the known period manufacturing catalogs and that all other models are. I hasten to point out that there are several model daggers that are known to exist that are not pictured in the factory sales catalogs. An example that comes to mind is the 55cm DLV dagger, but it is known to exist. Also, I would challenge you to try to locate several of the known miniature dagger models, like the 2nd Model Navy, Hunting miniature, etc. in a Solingen factory catalog. Does this mean that these model sidearms did not exist? Obviously, not.

 

Another forum member points out that he will believe in these DJ knives when he sees an actual “in-wear” photograph. I would point out that there are numerous known and accepted Third Reich edged weapons that to date the collecting community has not located in-wear photographs of the pieces being worn. Examples here are many, but, while we are discussing the Hitler Youth, how about in-wear pictures of HJ Honor knives, the HJ bayonet, etc. I have never seen. Have your Forum members?

 

Another one of your members made the point that perhaps these knives were put together by the factory and handed out to American GI’s after the war. One must realize that the city of Soli ngen took a real pounding from Allied bombing during the war, as pictured in my Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich series, and in the year 1945 many edged weapon factories were damaged or completely leveled.

 

The final point that I would like to make is that many of your forum members probably know, I followed Major Jim Atwood into Solingen two or three months after his trip during 1960, and located literally many hundreds of left-over original dagger and sword parts. Included in these parts were boxes of the DJ knife scabbards, and a couple of large boxes of left-over DJ grip plates. If one argues that this model dagger did not exist during the period, then why were all of these parts still in factory basements during early 1960?

 

I have personally made over 150 trips to Solingen and have studied the edged w eapon industry in some detail. While we may not be able to prove that these DJ knives were authorized for the DJ, I think that based upon the above facts, it is indisputable that this model sidearm did exist during the Third Reich period.

 

I hope, Russell, that these comments will add to your discussion on the subject of DJ knives.

 

Sincerely Yours,

 

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson

President

Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

 

 

[Евгений__]

I-lya, большое спасибо. На мой взгляд, больше и сказать нечего.

[Терехов Эдуард]

Илья,о каком форуме ГЮ идет речь в письме Джонсона?

 

Все,нашел через поисковик.

http://www.hj-research.com/

Изменено 6 сентября, 2011 пользователем Терехов Эдуард